Forest Service again being difficult for the Black Dog!
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:15 pm
All,
Just so you know what organizations go through hosting events, please read through this lengthy email thread between the USFS and I (start from the bottom and work your way up). Extremely unprofessional and biased. I urge you to email the Mt. Hood Forest Supervisor Gary Larson at: glarson@fs.fed.us and politely/methodically explain your with how the Mt. Hood National Forest is treating responsible motorized recreation! Could use some help here, folks! Please CC me in your reponses - thanks in advance!
-Tom
email: TawmN@aol.com
PS: Here is the main headquarters for Mt. Hood N.F. for phone or mail contact:
Mt. Hood National Forest Headquarters
16400 Champion Way
Sandy, Oregon 97055
Hours: Monday - Saturday 7:30am - 4:30pm
Closed on National Holidays &12:00pm - 1:00pm on Saturdays
Telephone: Voice: (503) 668-1700 TTY: (503) 668-1431 FAX: (503) 668-1794
===============================================
I am not new to OHVs Tom and I know the difference between a dual sport tour, a trials event, and a motocross race. I cut my teeth with dirtbikes in Colorado in 1978-80 (riding a DT-400 Yamaha beast), and spent a year with them in So California with a 350 mile system (using a TT-350 Yamaha and Honda ATVs). The only thing I got wrong is the date and your name. We are short-handed and don't have much time for this sort of thing. If we can settle a route, I am going to suggest that it stay the same each year forever until there are new OHV routes. This is the same tact we are taking with the SCCA sportscar race here...same route each year.
The Forest Plan is the overall management plan for the forest...check the website. It shows what trails are open to what uses. Other than the wet trail at Huxley, I am not closing things to you that are not already closed. You get to ride what is open to motorcycles now and nothing more. The agency has no major bias against OHVs, but we are also not funded or staffed to spend much time with commercial events like your's. Sorta like how we are not going to build you any trails unless someone else pays the bills. I forgot one thing -- we will be going into what is called Cost Recovery by next year which means you would pay us in advance to review a proposal...beyond the $80 permit fee and that would include the cose of resource specialists that consider the impacts of the event.
You may feel things went better with Dennis, but my neighbor/friend Dennis tells me things didn't go well with your group riding where they were not authorized in years past. He was nice. I am not Dennis. You can call me a cranky old fart, but I have little patience/tolerance for people trying to push the envelope with recreation events.
Bottom line: You need to take it or leave it as I have no time to negotiate things further. I did get your insurance certificate today, thanks.
Doug Jones
Recreation & Lands
Mt. Hood National Forest
541.352.6002 x682
Fax 541.352.7365
cell 503.708.3904
dgjones@fs.fed.us
==============================================="Don Amador" <damador@cwo.com>
06/30/2005 12:50 MST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please respond to "Don Amador" <damador@cwo.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To <TawmN@aol.com>, <dgjones@fs.fed.us>
cc
"Jerry Ingersoll" <jingersoll@fs.fed.us>, <ncard@fs.fed.us>, <rwiley@fs.fed.us>, <pnorman@fs.fed.us>, <mhhamilton@fs.fed.us>, <jthornton@fs.fed.us>, <sjfletcher@fs.fed.us>, <bchamberlain@fs.fed.us>, <gwoodcock@fs.fed.us>, <kslagle@fs.fed.us>, <kwalker@fs.fed.us>, <jtierney@fs.fed.us>, <mhernandez@fs.fed.us>, <dbambe@fs.fed.us>, <cmadrid@fs.fed.us>, <arykoff@fs.fed.us>, <glarson@fs.fed.us>
Subject
Re: Blackdog motorcycle tour permit and closures
Tom,
I am very disappointed in this turn of events. It appears that management by closures is the preferred option for the Mt. Hood NF.
Don Amador, BRC
www.sharetrails.org
===============================================----- Original Message -----
From: TawmN@aol.com
To: dgjones@fs.fed.us ; TawmN@aol.com
Cc: glarson@fs.fed.us ; arykoff@fs.fed.us ; cmadrid@fs.fed.us ; dbambe@fs.fed.us ; mhernandez@fs.fed.us ; jtierney@fs.fed.us ; kwalker@fs.fed.us ; kslagle@fs.fed.us ; gwoodcock@fs.fed.us ; bchamberlain@fs.fed.us ; sjfletcher@fs.fed.us ; jthornton@fs.fed.us ; mhhamilton@fs.fed.us ; pnorman@fs.fed.us ; rwiley@fs.fed.us ; ncard@fs.fed.us
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Blackdog motorcycle tour permit
Doug,
Your response is extremely disappointing and continues to show the USFS's specific bias against responsible motorized recreation on public lands. Things went relatively well previously with Dennis Beechler, and I realize you are new to this, and thus far things don't appear to be going well. You have numerous facts that are incorrect, so please allow me to explain them once again:
* My last name is spelled "Niemela", not "Niemala".
* My dualsport tour is always on the weekend after the busy July 4th weekend. This is for a reason, since the forest is usually less populated and less chance of any kind of possible conflicts. The dates for this year's event is July 9~10, not July 23-24 as you stated below. I am unsure where your date was founded.
* In item #1 you refer to "100-150 motorcycles in one day" on the Huxley Trail. Again you have the information incorrect as only 10-20% of my riders would enjoy the trail pieces. In years past we've been told "it's too dry", but now it's too wet. The majority of the people prefer the unimproved two-track roads. The median age for a dualsport rider is 40ish and more sedate, hence the smaller percentage of riders doing trail options.
* You refer to the 'Forest Plan', which to the best of my knowledge is still non-existent at this point, although it is in process. When the plan was requested last year through FOIA, I found out that something had been in process for years, but never really got traction. That's when I was asked to give my approval of state OHV funds to facilitate various OHV areas throughout the forest, of which I did. I still would like to see the updated status on this. You also referenced "but they are not listed in the Forest Plan as OHV trails", which investigation shows ONLY McCubbin's Gulch and Rocky Butte/#476 in Barlow District and Burnt Granite/#595, Huxley Lake/#521, Rho Ridge / Urban Link Hawk Mountain/#564/#564A. There are no OHV offerings in ZigZag or Mt. Hood Districts. Not counting McCubbin's Gulch, that is only approximately 16 miles of OHV opportunities.
* Now you say that we cannot use public-access roads at Trillium Lake and Summit Meadows, even though the vehicles are licensed, insured and spark arrested/muffled. Last year at Summit Meadows I had to calm down numerous riders that were verbally assaulted and threatened by the resident Mr. Butt, even though they were merely driving on that public road at my designated 5mph speed. I know Mr. Butt has a long history of other conflicts with the USFS and now I have to pay for his attacks? Next time I should let the lawsuits progress. And authorizing us to use Hwy 26 is a slap in the face. If we wanted to do pavement, we wouldn't need a permit. As a matter of fact, I am wondering why we even need a permit since we are now basically on open, gravel roads at best now?
* Blue Box and Bonnie Meadows trails are not on your "OHV Plan", though we have responsibly used them for almost 10 years via a one-time permit, along with other trails. Of course we did a service by clearing out the trails for future users. Again this shows a bias against responsible motorized recreation and an unwilling to work with a responsible organization to facilitate public access. Now your unwillingness to accept and allow responsible recreation has created the recent issue at Gibson Prairie, since there are no opportunities for the public. You are in essence creating your own problems there by not working with the OHV public.
Now let me re-explain again the premise of my dualsport tour:
* It is NOT a race, but a self-guided, scenic and historic tour on street-legal, insured, muffled, spark arrested motorbikes. The event brings large sums of money to the local economy via food, dining, lodging, etc. We love the forest too, we just choose a different mode of transportation, not unlike mountain bikers, equestrians and hikers. A few years back a ranger with an agenda from Estacada District had sent out a false, blanket email to the entire Mt. Hood Forest list saying it would be "a motocross race through riparian areas". Continuing to fight this bias against responsible motorized recreation continues today.
No, your proposals are not really acceptable, or in good faith (in my opinion), but I will once again follow it nonetheless. I followed it last year after the false and unproven claim by Mr. Thornton that my riders rode off the submitted course in '03. The pictures he took were weeks/months after my event and I was not even informed of this until a year later, just before my '04 event. The tracks left from the pictures [he took] could have been left by anyone else at any other time. Again, a bias or 'witch hunting' towards responsible use that obviously is still propagating to this day. Speaking of last year, after submitting my event route in advance, I was never informed of a Barlow Road wagon train that was also in process the same day of my event. This created a situation that could amost be perceived as 'creating conflict'. Fortunately my folks were polite and courteous.
So you know, I have always organized my events with high standards, hence the reason so many people come from so far away to participate in the scenic/historic tour. The state exhaust-note limit is 99db, but I only allow 94db. I have asked repeatedly over the years for USFS presence at my event's morning rider's meetings (to help with sound testing, discuss public-land issues, etc.), but have only had presence a couple times, and then it was unknown to me at the time - stealth I guess. Again, doesn't appear to be in good faith. I have openly asked for a USFS person to go with me on my proposed routes, but still no offers. Most other dualsport events throughout the nation have little reference to riding in urban or public areas and speed - I specifically specify riders to slow down, be quiet and courteous. My course markings are always removed on the same day. Among other things, we pick up our (and other's) trash and report criminal activities who violate our forest to the authorities.
It is clear that the Mt. Hood N.F. is unwilling to work with my (and other) organizations for a responsible event and specifically to motorized recreation, as opposed to neighboring USFS public lands. I will fax over my event insurance form today.
-Tom Niemela
Home: 503-681-8881
Cell: 503-803-7837
Work: 503-696-2188
===============================================
In a message dated 6/29/2005 7:30:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, dgjones@fs.fed.us writes:
Tom Niemala-
As in past years, your dual sport motorcycle tour starts and ends at Mt
Hood RV Village each day July 23-24. Your proposed route this year
involves all four districts of the Mt Hood NF...eastside Saturday, westside
Sunday. I have conferred with my co-workers around the forest and based on
their input, am prepared to make the following recommendations to the four
District Rangers:
1. With the exception of the McCubbins Gulch trail system, all trails
proposed for the tour should be denied. The only trail you showed that was
open to OHV use in the Forest Plan was the Huxley Lake trail on Clackamas
River RD. The district feels the trail is too wet this year to handle
100-150 motorcycles in one day. You stated that you have used Bonney Butte
trail and Blue Box Pass trail in past years, but they are not listed in the
Forest Plan as OHV trails.
2. All open forest roads proposed are acceptable with this caveat: use of
Still Creek Rd 2612, with subsequent crossing of Trillium Lake dam, should
be done on the morning of 7/23 with the eastbound riders. When westbound
on their return from the McCubbins area, they should stay on Hwy 26 and not
cross Trillium dam a second time when there are more recreationists out on
and about the dam area. We will not authorize your event to use the
non-USFS road across Summit Meadow -- to or from Still Creek road which has
brought complaints from the principal landowner there in past years.
If this is acceptable to you, please let me know and we can create a
permit. We'll need a copy of your liability insurance certificate again
too.
Regards,
Doug Jones
Recreation & Lands
Mt. Hood National Forest
541.352.6002 x682
Fax 541.352.7365
cell 503.708.3904
dgjones@fs.fed.us
Just so you know what organizations go through hosting events, please read through this lengthy email thread between the USFS and I (start from the bottom and work your way up). Extremely unprofessional and biased. I urge you to email the Mt. Hood Forest Supervisor Gary Larson at: glarson@fs.fed.us and politely/methodically explain your with how the Mt. Hood National Forest is treating responsible motorized recreation! Could use some help here, folks! Please CC me in your reponses - thanks in advance!
-Tom
email: TawmN@aol.com
PS: Here is the main headquarters for Mt. Hood N.F. for phone or mail contact:
Mt. Hood National Forest Headquarters
16400 Champion Way
Sandy, Oregon 97055
Hours: Monday - Saturday 7:30am - 4:30pm
Closed on National Holidays &12:00pm - 1:00pm on Saturdays
Telephone: Voice: (503) 668-1700 TTY: (503) 668-1431 FAX: (503) 668-1794
===============================================
I am not new to OHVs Tom and I know the difference between a dual sport tour, a trials event, and a motocross race. I cut my teeth with dirtbikes in Colorado in 1978-80 (riding a DT-400 Yamaha beast), and spent a year with them in So California with a 350 mile system (using a TT-350 Yamaha and Honda ATVs). The only thing I got wrong is the date and your name. We are short-handed and don't have much time for this sort of thing. If we can settle a route, I am going to suggest that it stay the same each year forever until there are new OHV routes. This is the same tact we are taking with the SCCA sportscar race here...same route each year.
The Forest Plan is the overall management plan for the forest...check the website. It shows what trails are open to what uses. Other than the wet trail at Huxley, I am not closing things to you that are not already closed. You get to ride what is open to motorcycles now and nothing more. The agency has no major bias against OHVs, but we are also not funded or staffed to spend much time with commercial events like your's. Sorta like how we are not going to build you any trails unless someone else pays the bills. I forgot one thing -- we will be going into what is called Cost Recovery by next year which means you would pay us in advance to review a proposal...beyond the $80 permit fee and that would include the cose of resource specialists that consider the impacts of the event.
You may feel things went better with Dennis, but my neighbor/friend Dennis tells me things didn't go well with your group riding where they were not authorized in years past. He was nice. I am not Dennis. You can call me a cranky old fart, but I have little patience/tolerance for people trying to push the envelope with recreation events.
Bottom line: You need to take it or leave it as I have no time to negotiate things further. I did get your insurance certificate today, thanks.
Doug Jones
Recreation & Lands
Mt. Hood National Forest
541.352.6002 x682
Fax 541.352.7365
cell 503.708.3904
dgjones@fs.fed.us
==============================================="Don Amador" <damador@cwo.com>
06/30/2005 12:50 MST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please respond to "Don Amador" <damador@cwo.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To <TawmN@aol.com>, <dgjones@fs.fed.us>
cc
"Jerry Ingersoll" <jingersoll@fs.fed.us>, <ncard@fs.fed.us>, <rwiley@fs.fed.us>, <pnorman@fs.fed.us>, <mhhamilton@fs.fed.us>, <jthornton@fs.fed.us>, <sjfletcher@fs.fed.us>, <bchamberlain@fs.fed.us>, <gwoodcock@fs.fed.us>, <kslagle@fs.fed.us>, <kwalker@fs.fed.us>, <jtierney@fs.fed.us>, <mhernandez@fs.fed.us>, <dbambe@fs.fed.us>, <cmadrid@fs.fed.us>, <arykoff@fs.fed.us>, <glarson@fs.fed.us>
Subject
Re: Blackdog motorcycle tour permit and closures
Tom,
I am very disappointed in this turn of events. It appears that management by closures is the preferred option for the Mt. Hood NF.
Don Amador, BRC
www.sharetrails.org
===============================================----- Original Message -----
From: TawmN@aol.com
To: dgjones@fs.fed.us ; TawmN@aol.com
Cc: glarson@fs.fed.us ; arykoff@fs.fed.us ; cmadrid@fs.fed.us ; dbambe@fs.fed.us ; mhernandez@fs.fed.us ; jtierney@fs.fed.us ; kwalker@fs.fed.us ; kslagle@fs.fed.us ; gwoodcock@fs.fed.us ; bchamberlain@fs.fed.us ; sjfletcher@fs.fed.us ; jthornton@fs.fed.us ; mhhamilton@fs.fed.us ; pnorman@fs.fed.us ; rwiley@fs.fed.us ; ncard@fs.fed.us
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Blackdog motorcycle tour permit
Doug,
Your response is extremely disappointing and continues to show the USFS's specific bias against responsible motorized recreation on public lands. Things went relatively well previously with Dennis Beechler, and I realize you are new to this, and thus far things don't appear to be going well. You have numerous facts that are incorrect, so please allow me to explain them once again:
* My last name is spelled "Niemela", not "Niemala".
* My dualsport tour is always on the weekend after the busy July 4th weekend. This is for a reason, since the forest is usually less populated and less chance of any kind of possible conflicts. The dates for this year's event is July 9~10, not July 23-24 as you stated below. I am unsure where your date was founded.
* In item #1 you refer to "100-150 motorcycles in one day" on the Huxley Trail. Again you have the information incorrect as only 10-20% of my riders would enjoy the trail pieces. In years past we've been told "it's too dry", but now it's too wet. The majority of the people prefer the unimproved two-track roads. The median age for a dualsport rider is 40ish and more sedate, hence the smaller percentage of riders doing trail options.
* You refer to the 'Forest Plan', which to the best of my knowledge is still non-existent at this point, although it is in process. When the plan was requested last year through FOIA, I found out that something had been in process for years, but never really got traction. That's when I was asked to give my approval of state OHV funds to facilitate various OHV areas throughout the forest, of which I did. I still would like to see the updated status on this. You also referenced "but they are not listed in the Forest Plan as OHV trails", which investigation shows ONLY McCubbin's Gulch and Rocky Butte/#476 in Barlow District and Burnt Granite/#595, Huxley Lake/#521, Rho Ridge / Urban Link Hawk Mountain/#564/#564A. There are no OHV offerings in ZigZag or Mt. Hood Districts. Not counting McCubbin's Gulch, that is only approximately 16 miles of OHV opportunities.
* Now you say that we cannot use public-access roads at Trillium Lake and Summit Meadows, even though the vehicles are licensed, insured and spark arrested/muffled. Last year at Summit Meadows I had to calm down numerous riders that were verbally assaulted and threatened by the resident Mr. Butt, even though they were merely driving on that public road at my designated 5mph speed. I know Mr. Butt has a long history of other conflicts with the USFS and now I have to pay for his attacks? Next time I should let the lawsuits progress. And authorizing us to use Hwy 26 is a slap in the face. If we wanted to do pavement, we wouldn't need a permit. As a matter of fact, I am wondering why we even need a permit since we are now basically on open, gravel roads at best now?
* Blue Box and Bonnie Meadows trails are not on your "OHV Plan", though we have responsibly used them for almost 10 years via a one-time permit, along with other trails. Of course we did a service by clearing out the trails for future users. Again this shows a bias against responsible motorized recreation and an unwilling to work with a responsible organization to facilitate public access. Now your unwillingness to accept and allow responsible recreation has created the recent issue at Gibson Prairie, since there are no opportunities for the public. You are in essence creating your own problems there by not working with the OHV public.
Now let me re-explain again the premise of my dualsport tour:
* It is NOT a race, but a self-guided, scenic and historic tour on street-legal, insured, muffled, spark arrested motorbikes. The event brings large sums of money to the local economy via food, dining, lodging, etc. We love the forest too, we just choose a different mode of transportation, not unlike mountain bikers, equestrians and hikers. A few years back a ranger with an agenda from Estacada District had sent out a false, blanket email to the entire Mt. Hood Forest list saying it would be "a motocross race through riparian areas". Continuing to fight this bias against responsible motorized recreation continues today.
No, your proposals are not really acceptable, or in good faith (in my opinion), but I will once again follow it nonetheless. I followed it last year after the false and unproven claim by Mr. Thornton that my riders rode off the submitted course in '03. The pictures he took were weeks/months after my event and I was not even informed of this until a year later, just before my '04 event. The tracks left from the pictures [he took] could have been left by anyone else at any other time. Again, a bias or 'witch hunting' towards responsible use that obviously is still propagating to this day. Speaking of last year, after submitting my event route in advance, I was never informed of a Barlow Road wagon train that was also in process the same day of my event. This created a situation that could amost be perceived as 'creating conflict'. Fortunately my folks were polite and courteous.
So you know, I have always organized my events with high standards, hence the reason so many people come from so far away to participate in the scenic/historic tour. The state exhaust-note limit is 99db, but I only allow 94db. I have asked repeatedly over the years for USFS presence at my event's morning rider's meetings (to help with sound testing, discuss public-land issues, etc.), but have only had presence a couple times, and then it was unknown to me at the time - stealth I guess. Again, doesn't appear to be in good faith. I have openly asked for a USFS person to go with me on my proposed routes, but still no offers. Most other dualsport events throughout the nation have little reference to riding in urban or public areas and speed - I specifically specify riders to slow down, be quiet and courteous. My course markings are always removed on the same day. Among other things, we pick up our (and other's) trash and report criminal activities who violate our forest to the authorities.
It is clear that the Mt. Hood N.F. is unwilling to work with my (and other) organizations for a responsible event and specifically to motorized recreation, as opposed to neighboring USFS public lands. I will fax over my event insurance form today.
-Tom Niemela
Home: 503-681-8881
Cell: 503-803-7837
Work: 503-696-2188
===============================================
In a message dated 6/29/2005 7:30:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, dgjones@fs.fed.us writes:
Tom Niemala-
As in past years, your dual sport motorcycle tour starts and ends at Mt
Hood RV Village each day July 23-24. Your proposed route this year
involves all four districts of the Mt Hood NF...eastside Saturday, westside
Sunday. I have conferred with my co-workers around the forest and based on
their input, am prepared to make the following recommendations to the four
District Rangers:
1. With the exception of the McCubbins Gulch trail system, all trails
proposed for the tour should be denied. The only trail you showed that was
open to OHV use in the Forest Plan was the Huxley Lake trail on Clackamas
River RD. The district feels the trail is too wet this year to handle
100-150 motorcycles in one day. You stated that you have used Bonney Butte
trail and Blue Box Pass trail in past years, but they are not listed in the
Forest Plan as OHV trails.
2. All open forest roads proposed are acceptable with this caveat: use of
Still Creek Rd 2612, with subsequent crossing of Trillium Lake dam, should
be done on the morning of 7/23 with the eastbound riders. When westbound
on their return from the McCubbins area, they should stay on Hwy 26 and not
cross Trillium dam a second time when there are more recreationists out on
and about the dam area. We will not authorize your event to use the
non-USFS road across Summit Meadow -- to or from Still Creek road which has
brought complaints from the principal landowner there in past years.
If this is acceptable to you, please let me know and we can create a
permit. We'll need a copy of your liability insurance certificate again
too.
Regards,
Doug Jones
Recreation & Lands
Mt. Hood National Forest
541.352.6002 x682
Fax 541.352.7365
cell 503.708.3904
dgjones@fs.fed.us